(10-09-2013, 11:37 AM)Swinger Wrote: [ -> ]I remember vividly the pleasant free-flowing driving experience 20 yrs ago. Then came COE, a system that supposedly could accurately control the growth of vehicles population and hence keep our roads congestion free. Singaporeans were very much aware of the terrible gridlock that could befall Spore seen in places like KL and Bangkok if nothing was done and COE was accepted as the necessary evil.
Fast forward to today, and after innumerable tweakings and several transport ministers we still ended up like KL and Bangkok or worse. Because everyone is trying to avoid getting stuck, traffic start to snarls as early as 7 am and 5 pm. In fact driving in KL is so much more pleasant today with so many new roads and expressways so long as you to pay the toll.
The recent announcement is yet again another tweak like those in the past. They can is being kicked further down the road.
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(10-09-2013, 11:57 AM)CityFarmer Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2013, 11:37 AM)Swinger Wrote: [ -> ]Fast forward to today, and after innumerable tweakings and several transport ministers we still ended up like KL and Bangkok or worse. Because everyone is trying to avoid getting stuck, traffic start to snarls as early as 7 am and 5 pm. In fact driving in KL is so much more pleasant today with so many new roads and expressways so long as you to pay the toll.
My experience showed different picture. KL traffic is much worse, comparing with CTE traffic, during peak hour.
I didn't visit Bangkok, but base on news report, it should be much worse, especially so during peak hour.
I'm not sure how familiar you're with KL/Selangor but I have spent many years in Klang Valley (and still drive there regularly). I used to curse the road condition in KL and full of praise for Singapore roads. In the last 15 years the whole of Klang Valley is completely transformed. I'm not saying KL traffic congestion is better but if you're familiar you can bypass most the city centre now with the major expressway such as NKVE, KESAS, Shah Alam Expressway (SAE), New Pantai Expressway (NPE), Kuala Lumpur Middle Ring Road 2 (MRR2), etc. The journey is longer but driving is much more pleasurable and there are many alternative routes available.
My point is that the COE has obviously not fulfilled its intended objective as a means to control vehicles population growth. Every few years fine tunings were done and yet the COE prices continue to gyrate wildly from 10k to 100k easily outperforming the STI index in volatility while at the same time the congestion is getting worse. It is not difficult to establish how many cars can be safely added without clogging the roads each year. So, did Singapore transport planners got their calculation wrong? Not likely, it seems the government is flip flopping between two opposing objectives - reducing congestion vs increasing revenue.
Gov is more interested to make COE a cash cow than any other measure. Does COE system solve the problem of traffic congestion ?
(10-09-2013, 05:57 PM)yawnyawn Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2013, 03:30 PM)Temperament Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2013, 11:29 AM)CityFarmer Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2013, 11:01 AM)specuvestor Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with what you say but I don't think using a capitalistic price alone mechanism will work for the greater good. A pity LTA dropped the idea to impose a limit on no of cars owned by a family. I think it is good idea to limit to 2. The rich will then also experience our inconvenience and know it's not just a matter of KPKB.
Personal car ownership is a luxury item, so we should not impose a limitation by regulation, imo.
They pay for it, and will compete among themselves for a quota. We have no reason to KPKB, right? 
Not all personal car ownership is for luxury or leisure. i was once a service technician who traveled all over Singapore and even part of JB to service medical equipments. At that time COE was quite high too. i remembered the cheapest Jap's car Suzuki Esteem was 80k+ for brand new. That was more than 20 years ago i think.
Now i think it is even worse because of increase of populations.
What about people in sales of all trades? Don't they need a car too?
I think COE is one of the main cause of inflation too?
Nobody really benefit except you know who.
Do you mean that every citizen/household should own a car? This is difficult to implement as there is already problem with parking spaces in HDB car parks now.
By taxing on car ownership, the govt will have additional money to build up Singapore's public transportation. This money doesn't come from nowhere.
Do you really believe every citizen/household should own a car? Then there are no poors among us liu. Ha! Ha! Eureka problems solve liu.
(10-09-2013, 06:24 PM)cfa Wrote: [ -> ]Gov is more interested to make COE a cash cow than any other measure. Does COE system solve the problem of traffic congestion ?
traffic in Singapore is much better than any other major city in Asia. so what do you think of it?
IMHO there are 2 very popular misconceptions here:
1) Revenue from COE does not goes to improving transport per se. There is no segregated accounts for COE which means the collection is comingled into general revenue. There is no direct link to transportation improvement vs COE collection. Compare that with the segregated accounts of the Totalisator Board to promote Arts and help the needy, or say the separate Eldercare Fund.
2) Revenue from COE is $2b in 2011 vs $50b total, not insignificant at 4% but I doubt that is the main premise for the COE system, especially when COE went to $10k in prior years which means government must be quite dumb not to constraint supply to pump up the price.
If we trace back history the past 10 years, it was Lee who envisioned a car for every middle class family in one of the NDP speeches that drove the whole cycle. COE became cheap to be affordable to the middle class, and loans were relaxed to help people achieve this "dream". Then of course eventually the roads got overcrowded especially with asset inflation and immigration policies. Somehow we had the big "miscalculation" of scrapping vs new cars, which was blamed as the main reason for the congestion.
IMHO the other problem is that they relied too much on nonsensical statistics to guide their policy: km of road per car. So they tried to build roads all over the place so that this ratio will be constant but it doesn't help CTE. To be fair, structural improvements with more expressways will help eventually but this will take time 远水救不了近火 The root of the issue is the population planning expanding at too fast a pace that affects all our infrastructure, including roads. The populace is right to be concerned about 7m.
(10-09-2013, 08:38 PM)Temperament Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2013, 05:57 PM)yawnyawn Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2013, 03:30 PM)Temperament Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2013, 11:29 AM)CityFarmer Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2013, 11:01 AM)specuvestor Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with what you say but I don't think using a capitalistic price alone mechanism will work for the greater good. A pity LTA dropped the idea to impose a limit on no of cars owned by a family. I think it is good idea to limit to 2. The rich will then also experience our inconvenience and know it's not just a matter of KPKB.
Personal car ownership is a luxury item, so we should not impose a limitation by regulation, imo.
They pay for it, and will compete among themselves for a quota. We have no reason to KPKB, right?
Not all personal car ownership is for luxury or leisure. i was once a service technician who traveled all over Singapore and even part of JB to service medical equipments. At that time COE was quite high too. i remembered the cheapest Jap's car Suzuki Esteem was 80k+ for brand new. That was more than 20 years ago i think.
Now i think it is even worse because of increase of populations.
What about people in sales of all trades? Don't they need a car too?
I think COE is one of the main cause of inflation too?
Nobody really benefit except you know who.
Do you mean that every citizen/household should own a car? This is difficult to implement as there is already problem with parking spaces in HDB car parks now.
By taxing on car ownership, the govt will have additional money to build up Singapore's public transportation. This money doesn't come from nowhere.
Do you really believe every citizen/household should own a car? Then there are no poors among us liu. Ha! Ha! Eureka problems solve liu.
I do not think that every citizen/household should own a car.
I will prefer the government to improve on existing public transportation system. (i.e. reduce cab booking charges / build more MRT lines / open up bus routes for private operators to bid) OR build up alternatives like lanes dedicated for cyclists.
(11-09-2013, 11:48 AM)yawnyawn Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2013, 08:38 PM)Temperament Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2013, 05:57 PM)yawnyawn Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2013, 03:30 PM)Temperament Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2013, 11:29 AM)CityFarmer Wrote: [ -> ]Personal car ownership is a luxury item, so we should not impose a limitation by regulation, imo.
They pay for it, and will compete among themselves for a quota. We have no reason to KPKB, right?
Not all personal car ownership is for luxury or leisure. i was once a service technician who traveled all over Singapore and even part of JB to service medical equipments. At that time COE was quite high too. i remembered the cheapest Jap's car Suzuki Esteem was 80k+ for brand new. That was more than 20 years ago i think.
Now i think it is even worse because of increase of populations.
What about people in sales of all trades? Don't they need a car too?
I think COE is one of the main cause of inflation too?
Nobody really benefit except you know who.
Do you mean that every citizen/household should own a car? This is difficult to implement as there is already problem with parking spaces in HDB car parks now.
By taxing on car ownership, the govt will have additional money to build up Singapore's public transportation. This money doesn't come from nowhere.
Do you really believe every citizen/household should own a car? Then there are no poors among us liu. Ha! Ha! Eureka problems solve liu.
I do not think that every citizen/household should own a car.
I will prefer the government to improve on existing public transportation system. (i.e. reduce cab booking charges / build more MRT lines / open up bus routes for private operators to bid) OR build up alternatives like lanes dedicated for cyclists.
Of course! Of course.
"But wait long, long" maybe our society will be more equitable. Meanwhile, we may help the GOV of the day to speed up for a more equitable society by the next GE or next, next....GE.
Don't think any thing going to change much if always one party GOV.
IMHO.
I think the expensive taxi price is not helping people from desiring a car. Gov shld control the cab and this is the only alternative for those who dont own a car and sometimes need the convenience of it. Many of this microscopic things r not detected by the people setting the policies, simply becos they r "up there".
Having said that, coe will have to exist to control vehicle population. But the overall tax system probably is good for the super rich, rich catergory.
(11-09-2013, 02:12 PM)countonme Wrote: [ -> ]I think the expensive taxi price is not helping people from desiring a car. Gov shld control the cab and this is the only alternative for those who dont own a car and sometimes need the convenience of it. Many of this microscopic things r not detected by the people setting the policies, simply becos they r "up there".
Having said that, coe will have to exist to control vehicle population. But the overall tax system probably is good for the super rich, rich catergory.
Thats why I said before that a "Supercar Category" should be created, and the minimum COE for this category is $300,000. The number of certificates available set at 5 for each round. Make it prestigous. Drive up the ego of owning one. Let the rich have their own play ground. Leave the Toyotas and Nissans to the general population.
I agree that taxi fare is getting ridiculous. With all the new kind and brands of taxi, they are pushing the fare up. Sometime on the road, and when in a hurry, simply can't be picky and wait for a Toyota taxi to appear...
(11-09-2013, 02:48 PM)NTL Wrote: [ -> ] (11-09-2013, 02:12 PM)countonme Wrote: [ -> ]I think the expensive taxi price is not helping people from desiring a car. Gov shld control the cab and this is the only alternative for those who dont own a car and sometimes need the convenience of it. Many of this microscopic things r not detected by the people setting the policies, simply becos they r "up there".
Having said that, coe will have to exist to control vehicle population. But the overall tax system probably is good for the super rich, rich catergory.
Thats why I said before that a "Supercar Category" should be created, and the minimum COE for this category is $300,000. The number of certificates available set at 5 for each round. Make it prestigous. Drive up the ego of owning one. Let the rich have their own play ground. Leave the Toyotas and Nissans to the general population.
I agree that taxi fare is getting ridiculous. With all the new kind and brands of taxi, they are pushing the fare up. Sometime on the road, and when in a hurry, simply can't be picky and wait for a Toyota taxi to appear...
Like i said earlier, a very high COE will inflate the cost of "everything" - especially Taxi fare and businesses directly or indirectly. No?