(17-09-2013, 09:45 AM)opmi Wrote: [ -> ] (17-09-2013, 08:49 AM)freedom Wrote: [ -> ]so I fail to understand your logic that time value of money is low by given a 1-2% depo rates. I thought in Singapore, it has been years that 1-2% is the depo rates.
You can refer to K1 thread. It has been well discussed about how Green(K1 is almost meaningless to Keppel) could benefit from higher share price.
Look at Global Investments, the higher share price does benefit it greatly to raise capital.
But all are just speculations only. Maybe Green is just nice only, who knows.
Just to clarify what i mean, difference in FV and PV is small if the discount rate (opportunity cost) is just 1-2% p.a. Meaning low opportunity cost in waiting.
For k1, OK, But what is your own take on how Green can benefit from higher share price?
Never follow Global Investments.
Anyone who has inner knowledge of the company, yet make an offer for it at low price, is NOT nice.
In terms of time value of money, clearly we have different expectation. I have stated in Tsit Wing thread before about whether the minority shareholders get a better deal accepting 30+ cents in 2013 than 28 cents in 2007 or 2008(Sorry if I remember wrongly). To me, the minority shareholders are not better off because it is not that difficult to earn that kind of return by accepting earlier and invest thereafter. Of course, many minority shareholders would celebrate their victories against the majority shareholders, but that's their expectation.
As for K1, I believe that Green is never intended to privatize the company at their offer price. They know that it is a long shot. As how they can benefit from a higher share price, Green is in the business of fund management. K1 would go nowhere with a low share price, or the options would be limited. But with a higher share price, maybe it will launch a large right issue to increase its capital significantly.
(17-09-2013, 10:18 AM)freedom Wrote: [ -> ] (17-09-2013, 09:45 AM)opmi Wrote: [ -> ] (17-09-2013, 08:49 AM)freedom Wrote: [ -> ]so I fail to understand your logic that time value of money is low by given a 1-2% depo rates. I thought in Singapore, it has been years that 1-2% is the depo rates.
You can refer to K1 thread. It has been well discussed about how Green(K1 is almost meaningless to Keppel) could benefit from higher share price.
Look at Global Investments, the higher share price does benefit it greatly to raise capital.
But all are just speculations only. Maybe Green is just nice only, who knows.
Just to clarify what i mean, difference in FV and PV is small if the discount rate (opportunity cost) is just 1-2% p.a. Meaning low opportunity cost in waiting.
For k1, OK, But what is your own take on how Green can benefit from higher share price?
Never follow Global Investments.
Anyone who has inner knowledge of the company, yet make an offer for it at low price, is NOT nice.
In terms of time value of money, clearly we have different expectation. I have stated in Tsit Wing thread before about whether the minority shareholders get a better deal accepting 30+ cents in 2013 than 28 cents in 2007 or 2008(Sorry if I remember wrongly). To me, the minority shareholders are not better off because it is not that difficult to earn that kind of return by accepting earlier and invest thereafter. Of course, many minority shareholders would celebrate their victories against the majority shareholders, but that's their expectation.
As for K1, I believe that Green is never intended to privatize the company at their offer price. They know that it is a long shot. As how they can benefit from a higher share price, Green is in the business of fund management. K1 would go nowhere with a low share price, or the options would be limited. But with a higher share price, maybe it will launch a large right issue to increase its capital significantly.
I dont disagree with you on time value issue. I think we both agree on the incremental price/value/profit in deciding whether to take or resist the Offer. I dont know Tsit Wing. But for Eastern, the Revalued NTA is 36 cents. 100% from 18 cents Offer. Thats an incentive to resist and fight.
For k1, Just to put the Offer in context. The Offer was annc during 2012 when the Euro crisis in full blown. Market sentiment was bad. Tecity was selling down their k1 stake jialat jialat to 8 cents+. Then Green & gang came out with the low ball offer. Serious or not, I dont know. But it is NOT "nice". Esp when they are managing the investments/companies.
k1's option is quite clear then and now. Divest and pay out proceeds. Minority shareholders been patient with those investments and should share in their harvest. Not to be ushered out when the party is about to start. Rights Issue/CApital Raising/Access to Capital Markets is standard BS/rationale when people make an takeover offer.
For eastern, you should read my previous post. I have stated my reasons. Simple to say that I am never going to be in bed with someone I don't trust or like.
(17-09-2013, 10:45 AM)freedom Wrote: [ -> ]For eastern, you should read my previous post. I have stated my reasons. Simple to say that I am never going to be in bed with someone I don't trust or like.
Thats a good filter for small cap investments. Return
OF Money is more important than Return
On Money! hahahaha.
I am in total agreement with you on anyone who lowball to privatise a company reveals his intention or character. Before that happens, nobody knows.
(17-09-2013, 08:58 AM)KopiKat Wrote: [ -> ] (17-09-2013, 08:22 AM)opmi Wrote: [ -> ]just want to say: There are 2 school of thoughts for this.
- Leave it to fate
- I make my own fate. Or at least try.
If I read correctly, 'freedom' would also select the latter choice but the difference is in the approach. Whereas you'd choose to hang around and be something like an activist, 'freedom' is suggesting that the time, effort and money can be better utilised on other stocks. There're no lack of choices out there and all of us have limited time and money.
End of day, it's all about opportunity cost and we'll have to make our own choices eg. to maximise our returns (using limited resources of time and money) or whatever is of our higher priorities eg. shareholder rights, making a difference,.....
Agree with Kopikat that both knows the issue involved but takes different approaches.
Ironically "freedom" is acting more like an OPMI: nothing I can do... evaluate and move on; while "opmi" is acting more like activist to drive value. I am somewhat in between: try to change if I can, move on if I cannot; and hopefully the wisdom to know the difference
Nonetheless minority rights is very important lesson for value investing because a lot of times it is not just about the asset or business, but also the management. Management can easily bleed minorities to death. If there is no regulation, the optimal path for a listed company that doesn't need future fund raising is to have zero PnL. A stock is
at least a 3 layer onion.
(17-09-2013, 10:06 AM)freedom Wrote: [ -> ] (17-09-2013, 09:26 AM)smallcaps Wrote: [ -> ]If minorities always run juz becoz a low ball offer was made, wouldn't it be encouraging managment to do so? End up buy another company the same happen then run again? I have heard management self justify their offer simply becoz many accepted...
maybe let's establish some basic fact first.
If the owner is a decent person and his/her aim is to privatize the company he/she owns, he/she will not give a low ball offer, but a fair deal to minority shareholders. If the owner tries his/her luck to squeeze the minority shareholders, it already speaks loud about the personality of the owner.
What are you waiting for? To succeed in annoying the owner to obtain a higher offer? I wish you the best of luck because you are going to need it. Just imagine whether you as a owner, will give a better offer if you keep getting annoyed.
Doesn't that mean the lower the offer, the more we should accept it?
I don't think minorities should allow themselves to be seen as 'hor chia',
easily taken advantage of by management, who actually has fiduciary duty to all shareholders. It will simply just encourage more 'try your luck' offers.
Wing Tai is also a non-believer of China property bubble...
Wing Tai unit sets new record for Shanghai land price
Winmine has set a new record for land price in Shanghai this year when it acquired a plot in downtown Huangpu District for RMB42,821 psm ($8,831).
Winmine is a subsidiary of Singapore-listed Wing Tai Holdings.
The parcel had a starting price of RMB748 million, or 29,013 psm, and was sold for RMB1.104 billion, a premium of 47.6%, designated for office and commercial purposes.
Winmine fought off rivals including China SCE Property Holdings and Shanghai Yongye Group to put in the winning bid of 8,594-square-meter parcel next to the Xintiandi area.
http://www.theedgesingapore.com/the-dail...price.html
(03-12-2013, 10:53 AM)CityFarmer Wrote: [ -> ]Wing Tai is also a non-believer of China property bubble...
Wing Tai unit sets new record for Shanghai land price
Winmine has set a new record for land price in Shanghai this year when it acquired a plot in downtown Huangpu District for RMB42,821 psm ($8,831).
Winmine is a subsidiary of Singapore-listed Wing Tai Holdings.
The parcel had a starting price of RMB748 million, or 29,013 psm, and was sold for RMB1.104 billion, a premium of 47.6%, designated for office and commercial purposes.
Winmine fought off rivals including China SCE Property Holdings and Shanghai Yongye Group to put in the winning bid of 8,594-square-meter parcel next to the Xintiandi area.
http://www.theedgesingapore.com/the-dail...price.html
Its likely they could enter into a JV to split the risk of this site. Back in 2010, they bidded sky high for the land parcel beside redhill MRT Station also.
Wing Tai 1HFY2014 result is out this evening. PATMI as at 1HFY2014 is S$72.95 mil or 9.28 cents per share. As at 1HFY2014, Wing Tai has equity attributable to shareholder of S$2.8 billion or NAV of $3.57 per shares. With last transacted price 0f S$1.775 and this work out to be only 0.498X which is one of the lowest among property developers. Wing Tai has cash equivalent of S$663.7 million and a total debt of S$1.14 billion, this gives a reasonable net gearing of
17% which is pretty low among its peers. The following is the financials of Wing Tai as at 1HFY2014:
Market Price: $1.775
Book Value: 3.57
Price to Book: 0.4979
Net Cash/Debt ($476,210.00)
Net Debt per Shares ($0.6058)
Gearing 16.99%
1HFY2014
Revenue $470,389.00
PATMI $72,952.00
EPS $0.0928
NAV $3.5651
Equity $2,802,520.00
ROE 2.60%
1HFY2014
After successive rounds of property cooling measures and the introduction of the Total Debt Servicing Ratio
(“TDSR”) in June 2013, the demand for new residential units in Singapore has been adversely impacted. The
URA’s residential property price index declined by 0.9% in the fourth quarter of 2013.
The total number of new residential units sold islandwide in the second half of 2013 fell to approximately 4,900
units, as compared to 9,950 new units sold in the first half of 2013. The Group will monitor the market closely and
will at appropriate times launch new residential projects for sale in the current year.
In November 2013, the Group was awarded the tender for a plot of land in Huai Hai Middle Road Shanghai
The plot has an approximate site area of 8,594 square metres and will be developed into an office
cum retail development. The Group will continue to explore investment opportunities in the markets in which it operates.
http://infopub.sgx.com/FileOpen/Announce...eID=272446
vested
the debt is astonishingly high >1billion, not sure if I can sleep well at nite..but it seems deeply undervalued on the other hand