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(27-11-2017, 08:49 AM)yeokiwi Wrote: [ -> ]The electrical loads vary throughout the day and night. The electrical generation design is based on satisfying the peak power load that is most likely to happen in the morning. In the night, the power station will have to scale back the electrical generation and most likely, will have lots of idle power output since there is a minimal power generation limitation.

And, since most vehicles will be parked at night, it represents a good opportunity to fully utilize the power generation capability during off peak period.

http://www.keppelelectric.com/en/underst...&rsid=4267

If the sample bill is representative, the off peak tariff is only 8cts/kwh while peak tariff is 74cts. Close to ten times difference.

Erm Bro

I think we are talking about slightly different things wor....

Have you ever stayed at an old building whereby just switching on an electric kettle / heater will trip the whole circuit?  Blush
(27-11-2017, 09:54 AM)HitandRun Wrote: [ -> ]Erm Bro

I think we are talking about slightly different things wor....

Have you ever stayed at an old building whereby just switching on an electric kettle / heater will trip the whole circuit?  Blush

It is more likely the single 3 pin plug is supplying multiple appliances. 220V x 13A ~ 3kw. You can try 3 or 4 kettles with one plug and even new house will trip too.

Electrical car charging will require separate substations, voltage level and current level to charge fast and so it will be unlikely to share the same household grid. Of course, for landed, they are welcomed to charge at 3kw with a single plug.

There is little transmission limitation from power station to substation since the transmission voltage is easily above 100kv.
The main limitation lies with the ability to generate enough power to sustain the charging which is quite substantial.
(27-11-2017, 08:49 AM)yeokiwi Wrote: [ -> ]
(27-11-2017, 07:57 AM)HitandRun Wrote: [ -> ]One problem that I've not gotten round my head is the infrastructure constraints in terms of the power grid.

Each Singaporean household consumes approximately 500kwh per month. Even the lowest end Tesla Model 3 has a capacity of 50kwh. Assuming that one charges approximately once every 2 days, the power consumption would still be greater than what a household consumes. 

Based on what I know, there are approximately 500,000 to 600,000 private passenger vehicles in Singapore.

The electrical loads vary throughout the day and night. The electrical generation design is based on satisfying the peak power load that is most likely to happen in the morning. In the night, the power station will have to scale back the electrical generation and most likely, will have lots of idle power output since there is a minimal power generation limitation.

And, since most vehicles will be parked at night, it represents a good opportunity to fully utilize the power generation capability during off peak period.

http://www.keppelelectric.com/en/underst...&rsid=4267

If the sample bill is representative, the off peak tariff is only 8cts/kwh while peak tariff is 74cts. Close to ten times difference.


To get the peak and off peak, means have to get the wholesale price package, (ie floating rate)
did run thru the daily 1/2hour fluctuation before. peak and off-peak difference about 30%, not 90%

yeokiwi, the number you mentioned is the price for the use of the grid... not the wholesale power tariff..

next year, when retail contestabiltity goes down to mass market level, be careful when you switch...a lot of funny charges. savings about 30% if switching to the 'riskier' wholesale tariff..

https://www.emcsg.com/marketdata/priceinformation  see historical data
(27-11-2017, 10:18 AM)opmi Wrote: [ -> ]To get the peak and off peak, means have to get the wholesale price package, (ie floating rate)
did run thru the daily 1/2hour fluctuation before. peak and off-peak difference about 30%, not 90%

yeokiwi, the number you mentioned is the price for the use of the grid... not the wholesale power tariff..

next year, when retail contestabiltity goes down to mass market level, be careful when you switch...a lot of funny charges. savings about 30% if switching to the 'riskier' wholesale tariff..

https://www.emcsg.com/marketdata/priceinformation  see historical data

Thanks for the info. I am not an expert in this field and the assumption is wrong Tongue
There exists a lull period in the night for electrical vehicles to take on the grid. But, I suppose if the entire nation is going to transit to electrical vehicles, we probably will need more power stations.
(26-11-2017, 01:42 AM)specuvestor Wrote: [ -> ]
(25-11-2017, 04:20 PM)BlueKelah Wrote: [ -> ]Only if u forgot to recharge or going long distance driving. For most urban user and weekend warrior, full charge at home overnight would be the norm and sufficient.

Also it is recommended to have a rest every few hours constant driving. A half an hour toilet stop, including makan and check your facebook whatsapp and even nap would be a perfect fit for the recharging.

And of course backup and maybe hot swappable battery packs will be easily developed. A hot swap battery pack will only take a couple mins to swap. Lets not forget EV has extra big empty space in the front which is perfect for more battery.

Just look at how we tackle the smartphone low battery problem. Similar solution for ev.

So the only remaining obstacle really is the cost of ownership.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

If this human behaviour is true, then cell phone powerbank no biz Liao.

Not forgetting the rush to increase power in cell phone battery leading to short circuits and fire. Fire in your pocket and fire in the car is probably quite different. Let’s see if they mass produce model 3 if quality will not suffer. Samsung Battery gate is probably not even statistically significant when one produces 10m pieces, but one not likely want to be at tail end risk.

In my opinion the short term solution is the swappable battery pack. To expect instant gratification generation to wait half an hour to charge is not realistic

No sure why you guys so focussed on the half hour charge time. 
In Singapore context, half hour charging is not an issue at all as this function will almost not be used at all. 
Why?
Model 3 range is touted to be 350km base model and long range 540km(probably bigger battery packs). Lets say i go to work from woodland mrt to raffles place mrt by car (using google maps) is 27km*2 = 54km round trip. Lets say one day we allocated  60km for work travel and maybe another 10km go makan at night. 70km total. Maybe allow for traffic jam and aircon use. 100km/day range is used. After 3 days, you  would left 50km (~14% charge left, simplistically saying taking that 100% charge = 350km)

So only need to charge once every 3 days at the very least. 
For average user, let's say you reach home, get out of car and plug it in the wall socket and charge at 2kw/H(like running a 1hp aircon unit). that will be 16kwh total for 8 hours charging. That's around 1/3 of the battery charge or 100km worth of driving.

You would really only need the supercharging half hour if you are like salesman and do like 200km everyday driving or if you do long distance to malaysia. 

One of the solutions to charging of course is swappable battery packs. However each battery pack will likely cost a few thousand extra and will only have maybe 10 or 20kwh capacity.

Another solution is the one currently touted by Toyota and Hyundai which is the hydrogen powered EV, but this is still not mainstream yet and require expensive investment into setting up hydrogen pump stations and other infrastructure.

In recent years, hybrid is actually gaining quite a bit of traction in the Taxi industry as well as with motorist. IMHO currently this is still the best combo for cars with massive range increase and still as convenient to pump petrol. 

BYD did a Taxi EV trial in HK was a failure and now they are testing it in Singapore. Not sure if they will be successful or not. 

I would say end of the day its all about total cost of ownership for switch to EV. Locally the gov not very supportive of Tesla car, so in local context no point discussing Tesla cars. If talking about EV in general then will have to see how the BlueSG EV car sharing goes. Might become mainstream in the future and gov might even create special self driving EV car/bus lane on the roads.
Just a few points to contribute:


1. Singapore will transition to Electric vehicle eventually. Technology advancement, improved infrastructure, and legislation will work itself out. Government and private sector have shown keen interest.

2. Singaporeans will remember to charge their cars (if it is not fully automated already) more often than their Cell Phones, because we use and park our cars predictably but we move and use our cell phones more unpredictably at home, which is why we sometimes misplace, or forgot to charge it.

3. In Singapore context, availability of charging stations and charge time is less important because expected distance travelled per day is much lesser than driving range (which keeps improving).

4. Electric vehicles is much better than internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle: (1) cost less to operate and maintain (2) less pollution (3) more energy efficient (4) makes the grid more efficient (https://www.forbes.com/sites/constancedo...de8005121e) (5) will become cheaper over time as technology progresses.

Hence the logical conclusion is it will replace ICEs eventually.
(27-11-2017, 05:16 PM)BlueKelah Wrote: [ -> ]
(26-11-2017, 01:42 AM)specuvestor Wrote: [ -> ]
(25-11-2017, 04:20 PM)BlueKelah Wrote: [ -> ]Only if u forgot to recharge or going long distance driving. For most urban user and weekend warrior, full charge at home overnight would be the norm and sufficient.

Also it is recommended to have a rest every few hours constant driving. A half an hour toilet stop, including makan and check your facebook whatsapp and even nap would be a perfect fit for the recharging.

And of course backup and maybe hot swappable battery packs will be easily developed. A hot swap battery pack will only take a couple mins to swap. Lets not forget EV has extra big empty space in the front which is perfect for more battery.

Just look at how we tackle the smartphone low battery problem. Similar solution for ev.

So the only remaining obstacle really is the cost of ownership.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

If this human behaviour is true, then cell phone powerbank no biz Liao.

Not forgetting the rush to increase power in cell phone battery leading to short circuits and fire. Fire in your pocket and fire in the car is probably quite different. Let’s see if they mass produce model 3 if quality will not suffer. Samsung Battery gate is probably not even statistically significant when one produces 10m pieces, but one not likely want to be at tail end risk.

In my opinion the short term solution is the swappable battery pack. To expect instant gratification generation to wait half an hour to charge is not realistic

No sure why you guys so focussed on the half hour charge time. 
In Singapore context, half hour charging is not an issue at all as this function will almost not be used at all. 
Why?
Model 3 range is touted to be 350km base model and long range 540km(probably bigger battery packs). Lets say i go to work from woodland mrt to raffles place mrt by car (using google maps) is 27km*2 = 54km round trip. Lets say one day we allocated  60km for work travel and maybe another 10km go makan at night. 70km total. Maybe allow for traffic jam and aircon use. 100km/day range is used. After 3 days, you  would left 50km (~14% charge left, simplistically saying taking that 100% charge = 350km)

So only need to charge once every 3 days at the very least. 
For average user, let's say you reach home, get out of car and plug it in the wall socket and charge at 2kw/H(like running a 1hp aircon unit). that will be 16kwh total for 8 hours charging. That's around 1/3 of the battery charge or 100km worth of driving.

You would really only need the supercharging half hour if you are like salesman and do like 200km everyday driving or if you do long distance to malaysia. 

One of the solutions to charging of course is swappable battery packs. However each battery pack will likely cost a few thousand extra and will only have maybe 10 or 20kwh capacity.

Another solution is the one currently touted by Toyota and Hyundai which is the hydrogen powered EV, but this is still not mainstream yet and require expensive investment into setting up hydrogen pump stations and other infrastructure.

In recent years, hybrid is actually gaining quite a bit of traction in the Taxi industry as well as with motorist. IMHO currently this is still the best combo for cars with massive range increase and still as convenient to pump petrol. 

BYD did a Taxi EV trial in HK was a failure and now they are testing it in Singapore. Not sure if they will be successful or not. 

I would say end of the day its all about total cost of ownership for switch to EV. Locally the gov not very supportive of Tesla car, so in local context no point discussing Tesla cars. If talking about EV in general then  will have to see how the BlueSG EV car sharing goes. Might become mainstream in the future and gov might even create special self driving EV car/bus lane on the roads.

hey. why do you say "Locally the gov not very supportive of Tesla car, so in local context no point discussing Tesla cars."? i'm eagerly waiting for them to come to singapore.
Musk's record-breaking battery officially launches in Australia

http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/energy-c...-australia
(03-12-2017, 12:38 PM)BRT Wrote: [ -> ]
(27-11-2017, 05:16 PM)BlueKelah Wrote: [ -> ]
(26-11-2017, 01:42 AM)specuvestor Wrote: [ -> ]
(25-11-2017, 04:20 PM)BlueKelah Wrote: [ -> ]Only if u forgot to recharge or going long distance driving. For most urban user and weekend warrior, full charge at home overnight would be the norm and sufficient.

Also it is recommended to have a rest every few hours constant driving. A half an hour toilet stop, including makan and check your facebook whatsapp and even nap would be a perfect fit for the recharging.

And of course backup and maybe hot swappable battery packs will be easily developed. A hot swap battery pack will only take a couple mins to swap. Lets not forget EV has extra big empty space in the front which is perfect for more battery.

Just look at how we tackle the smartphone low battery problem. Similar solution for ev.

So the only remaining obstacle really is the cost of ownership.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

If this human behaviour is true, then cell phone powerbank no biz Liao.

Not forgetting the rush to increase power in cell phone battery leading to short circuits and fire. Fire in your pocket and fire in the car is probably quite different. Let’s see if they mass produce model 3 if quality will not suffer. Samsung Battery gate is probably not even statistically significant when one produces 10m pieces, but one not likely want to be at tail end risk.

In my opinion the short term solution is the swappable battery pack. To expect instant gratification generation to wait half an hour to charge is not realistic

No sure why you guys so focussed on the half hour charge time. 
In Singapore context, half hour charging is not an issue at all as this function will almost not be used at all. 
Why?
Model 3 range is touted to be 350km base model and long range 540km(probably bigger battery packs). Lets say i go to work from woodland mrt to raffles place mrt by car (using google maps) is 27km*2 = 54km round trip. Lets say one day we allocated  60km for work travel and maybe another 10km go makan at night. 70km total. Maybe allow for traffic jam and aircon use. 100km/day range is used. After 3 days, you  would left 50km (~14% charge left, simplistically saying taking that 100% charge = 350km)

So only need to charge once every 3 days at the very least. 
For average user, let's say you reach home, get out of car and plug it in the wall socket and charge at 2kw/H(like running a 1hp aircon unit). that will be 16kwh total for 8 hours charging. That's around 1/3 of the battery charge or 100km worth of driving.

You would really only need the supercharging half hour if you are like salesman and do like 200km everyday driving or if you do long distance to malaysia. 

One of the solutions to charging of course is swappable battery packs. However each battery pack will likely cost a few thousand extra and will only have maybe 10 or 20kwh capacity.

Another solution is the one currently touted by Toyota and Hyundai which is the hydrogen powered EV, but this is still not mainstream yet and require expensive investment into setting up hydrogen pump stations and other infrastructure.

In recent years, hybrid is actually gaining quite a bit of traction in the Taxi industry as well as with motorist. IMHO currently this is still the best combo for cars with massive range increase and still as convenient to pump petrol. 

BYD did a Taxi EV trial in HK was a failure and now they are testing it in Singapore. Not sure if they will be successful or not. 

I would say end of the day its all about total cost of ownership for switch to EV. Locally the gov not very supportive of Tesla car, so in local context no point discussing Tesla cars. If talking about EV in general then  will have to see how the BlueSG EV car sharing goes. Might become mainstream in the future and gov might even create special self driving EV car/bus lane on the roads.

hey. why do you say "Locally the gov not very supportive of Tesla car, so in local context no point discussing Tesla cars."? i'm eagerly waiting for them to come to singapore.

Old article...
http://www.zemotoring.com/news/2011/02/t...government

There was a drama last year when a Tesla import was taxed with a carbon surcharge.
http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/tr...del-s-here

After that 2  Tesla cars granted tax break.
http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/tr...tax-breaks

Thats over a year ago liao. Why do you think Tesla has not come back to set up shop again? After all, Elon can pick up phone and call our PM directly what. If SG gov really want it to happen, we will see big announcement of gov spending for setting up supercharger stations and charging stations at HDB. My suspicion is that there are still some hurdles becoz of our gov. 

Look at HK has 3 Tesla offices liao. But recently they also cancel the rebate so sales there gone down. But rich people still buy to show off.
On the technical side...

Full Electric cars have far less components in its drivetrain than its petrol counterpart.
To drive the car forward it just needs an invertor(controller) to convert the power to 3 phase to drive the motor.
It is also almost silent, vibration free and with instant torque, very desirable traits.
For electric cars, the weigh penalty comes from the battery packs. What is also of concern is the air-con, which consumes a fair bit of electricity. So in singapore, the range is not going to be fantastic with air-con on full blast. Then again, singapore's a tiny island and range shouldnt be a huge concern.

With advancement in battery technology, it is very likely the future will see many more electric cars. And the charging time is of no concern once it takes off. Charging time will likely to be shortened and there is a possibility of contactless charging i.e. you park the car and it automatically charges itself without you having to plug it in. For petrol driven ones, it is not possible. So there is huge potential to make electric cars far more superior than petrol driven ones because we are now just at the very beginning of electric cars.

But my best guess is that while Tesla is spear-heading the electric vehicle development, it is likely someone else who will win more market share and be profitable in the future.
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