Underdogger & Curious Party,
I wouldn't expect both of you to be the ones losing confidence in this thread.
both of you were the hardest core promoters who were very confident of 13c from investment properties and FULL 13c from SAH.
what happened to those mark my words kind of confidence ?
(15-04-2012, 09:39 PM)Underdogger Wrote: [ -> ]Expectations that the New Toyo will pay out special dividends (any time soon, if any) seem to have dampened quite a bit, to say the least...
Prepare for the worst case scenario....
(15-04-2012, 03:25 PM)Curiousparty Wrote: [ -> ]As stated by SAH in its most recent announcement, it will pay out a max of ONLY 50% from the sales proceeds.
So, there is a strong likelihood that the payout could be much less than 50%...
This might disappoint a lot of shareholders...Even then, it does not imply that New Toyo will automatically pay out to its own shareholders...
(14-04-2012, 12:12 AM)ValueBeliever Wrote: [ -> ]is it so hard to ask a reasonable question. SAH is money that was invested by NT. Funds return to NT and chairman decides to pay himself a ex-gratia payment? Shouldnt shldrs be entitled to a share of the proceeds if Mr. Yen is getting 2mil plus?
He is taking the opportunity to milk for himself while shldrs have to wait until when? He should have seen in the market nowadays, you cannot increase shldrs value unless you also raise the dividend and share price follow in tendum. We should also remind directors that having the same higher dividend yield is the direct result of depressed share price. We need to raise the bar now that he has asked for 2mil to be paid - pls justify?
How long more do we have to wait if NT is worth a lot more!! How do they intent to raise shldrs value if not dividend - no point talking - must put into practice! The business is afterall link to client that sell an addictive product and most of these client has never been affected by recession - so why cant they pay out special dividend!!
It would be a BIG Disappointment if ID and SIAS cannot argue this with the Yen!!
It is clear to me the Yen are taking advantage of minority by paying themselves 1st on the 2mil and we need to press on
Price is temporary, value is permanent.
Like all VBs, stick to your gun. One day value will be realised. Its your firm belief and stamina that will ensure you see the rainbow at the end.
You never know how those Big Boys play their cards...
It has always been a game of deception since time immemorial..
Of course, every statement made should be supported by facts as far as possible.
SAH has stated categorically that it will only pay out a Max of 50% and keep the remaining 50% for investment purposes.
New Toyo stated clearly that "depending on the final outcome of the asset sales by SAH, it may also review its strategic positioning..
These are facts. Interpretation of these facts would be subjective..
(16-04-2012, 08:47 AM)Underdogger Wrote: [ -> ]"Stealth Positioning" - Principles of Marketing 
(15-04-2012, 09:55 PM)rexace Wrote: [ -> ]Underdogger & Curious Party,
I wouldn't expect both of you to be the ones losing confidence in this thread.
both of you were the hardest core promoters who were very confident of 13c from investment properties and FULL 13c from SAH.
what happened to those mark my words kind of confidence ?
(15-04-2012, 09:39 PM)Underdogger Wrote: [ -> ]Expectations that the New Toyo will pay out special dividends (any time soon, if any) seem to have dampened quite a bit, to say the least...
Prepare for the worst case scenario....
(15-04-2012, 03:25 PM)Curiousparty Wrote: [ -> ]As stated by SAH in its most recent announcement, it will pay out a max of ONLY 50% from the sales proceeds.
So, there is a strong likelihood that the payout could be much less than 50%...
This might disappoint a lot of shareholders...Even then, it does not imply that New Toyo will automatically pay out to its own shareholders...
(14-04-2012, 12:12 AM)ValueBeliever Wrote: [ -> ]is it so hard to ask a reasonable question. SAH is money that was invested by NT. Funds return to NT and chairman decides to pay himself a ex-gratia payment? Shouldnt shldrs be entitled to a share of the proceeds if Mr. Yen is getting 2mil plus?
He is taking the opportunity to milk for himself while shldrs have to wait until when? He should have seen in the market nowadays, you cannot increase shldrs value unless you also raise the dividend and share price follow in tendum. We should also remind directors that having the same higher dividend yield is the direct result of depressed share price. We need to raise the bar now that he has asked for 2mil to be paid - pls justify?
How long more do we have to wait if NT is worth a lot more!! How do they intent to raise shldrs value if not dividend - no point talking - must put into practice! The business is afterall link to client that sell an addictive product and most of these client has never been affected by recession - so why cant they pay out special dividend!!
It would be a BIG Disappointment if ID and SIAS cannot argue this with the Yen!!
It is clear to me the Yen are taking advantage of minority by paying themselves 1st on the 2mil and we need to press on
SAH has all along said they will pay 50% and retain 50%,
why then were you so confident to say eventually they will pay the full 100% ?
(16-04-2012, 09:07 AM)Curiousparty Wrote: [ -> ]You never know how those Big Boys play their cards...
It has always been a game of deception since time immemorial..
Of course, every statement made should be supported by facts as far as possible.
SAH has stated categorically that it will only pay out a Max of 50% and keep the remaining 50% for investment purposes.
New Toyo stated clearly that "depending on the final outcome of the asset sales by SAH, it may also review its strategic positioning..
These are facts. Interpretation of these facts would be subjective..
(16-04-2012, 08:47 AM)Underdogger Wrote: [ -> ]"Stealth Positioning" - Principles of Marketing
(15-04-2012, 09:55 PM)rexace Wrote: [ -> ]Underdogger & Curious Party,
I wouldn't expect both of you to be the ones losing confidence in this thread.
both of you were the hardest core promoters who were very confident of 13c from investment properties and FULL 13c from SAH.
what happened to those mark my words kind of confidence ?
(15-04-2012, 09:39 PM)Underdogger Wrote: [ -> ]Expectations that the New Toyo will pay out special dividends (any time soon, if any) seem to have dampened quite a bit, to say the least...
Prepare for the worst case scenario....
(15-04-2012, 03:25 PM)Curiousparty Wrote: [ -> ]As stated by SAH in its most recent announcement, it will pay out a max of ONLY 50% from the sales proceeds.
So, there is a strong likelihood that the payout could be much less than 50%...
This might disappoint a lot of shareholders...Even then, it does not imply that New Toyo will automatically pay out to its own shareholders...
(16-04-2012, 09:07 AM)Curiousparty Wrote: [ -> ]You never know how those Big Boys play their cards...
It has always been a game of deception since time immemorial..
Of course, every statement made should be supported by facts as far as possible.
SAH has stated categorically that it will only pay out a Max of 50% and keep the remaining 50% for investment purposes.
New Toyo stated clearly that "depending on the final outcome of the asset sales by SAH, it may also review its strategic positioning..
These are facts. Interpretation of these facts would be subjective..
(16-04-2012, 08:47 AM)Underdogger Wrote: [ -> ]"Stealth Positioning" - Principles of Marketing
(15-04-2012, 09:55 PM)rexace Wrote: [ -> ]Underdogger & Curious Party,
I wouldn't expect both of you to be the ones losing confidence in this thread.
both of you were the hardest core promoters who were very confident of 13c from investment properties and FULL 13c from SAH.
what happened to those mark my words kind of confidence ?
(15-04-2012, 09:39 PM)Underdogger Wrote: [ -> ]Expectations that the New Toyo will pay out special dividends (any time soon, if any) seem to have dampened quite a bit, to say the least...
Prepare for the worst case scenario....
(15-04-2012, 03:25 PM)Curiousparty Wrote: [ -> ]As stated by SAH in its most recent announcement, it will pay out a max of ONLY 50% from the sales proceeds.
So, there is a strong likelihood that the payout could be much less than 50%...
This might disappoint a lot of shareholders...Even then, it does not imply that New Toyo will automatically pay out to its own shareholders...
For those who place their trusts in the LIU Brothers and the YENs, I wish them LOTS and LOTS of luck.
Nothing is static in this world, and one's interperation and analysis will change along with it.
If you see the New Toyo's AR 2011, you may be very perplexed about the various possible scenarios, i.e. what strategic positionings the company will take, depending on the final outcome of the asset sales by SAH..
If shareholders push harder on SAH's BODs, they may get all the payout eventually. It is very disppointing that New Toyo seems very passive on this. As the largest shareholder of SAH (at 34%), it appears rather strange that they have remained reticent and did not push harder on SAH.
*********
Full exposure to SAH may be too risker.
New Toyo's 34% exposure to SAH might be MORE palatable for those with a weaker stomach for risk
Running a business has never been easy all along. Even though they are listed company, there may be things that they cannot reveal in the public forum.
Since listing of SAH, if anyone bothers to track - after the first 3 years, there is hardly any mentioned of SAH in New Toyo AR even though it is a significant associate contributor.
Everyone have to be thankful that SAH is Singapore incorporated. If it is domiciled elsewhere - it would have evaporated like any other S chips.
Doing business in China is extremely tough. Moreover N Toyo is in the sin industry hence the integrity of the management must be carefully considered.
If anyone bothers to look at long term share price chart of N Toyo, it tells a good story. As investors, we look at the dynamics. Depending on our risks profile, we decide what we can invest.
Perhaps, one day someone can ask Muddy Waters Research to do a thinkpiece on SAH and New Toyo, and do some background checks
*****
Muddy Waters Research is a research company based in US that exposes fraud companies in China. The most recent case in point was their exposure of Sinoforest.
http://www.muddywatersresearch.com/
Can see that weaker hands are letting off of this counter and we might see even more liquidation in the days ahead, as long as both SAH and New Toyo did not give a clear indication of how they intend to do with the sales proceeds...
After all, the sales proceeds are the hard-earned money of the shareholders and should not be "squandered away". Investors should not be brushed aside in a few sweeping statements like "strategic review" or new line of businesses, etc...
To add salt to the wound, EPS has increased from 3.91(2010) to 4.51 cents (2011), but yet dividend remains the same at 1.94 cents.
Back in 2009, the EPS was 3.53 cents and the dividend was 2 cents..
(16-04-2012, 02:50 PM)Curiousparty Wrote: [ -> ]Just look at the list of disclosure of persons occupying managerial positions who are related to CEO or substantial shareholder...
GM of New Toyo (Vietnam) Aluminium paper
Production Manager
Treasury Accountant, etc
(16-04-2012, 11:38 AM)Underdogger Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps, one day someone can ask Muddy Waters Research to do a thinkpiece on SAH and New Toyo, and do some background checks
*****
Muddy Waters Research is a research company based in US that exposes fraud companies in China. The most recent case in point was their exposure of Sinoforest.
http://www.muddywatersresearch.com/
I think you have conveniently forgotten about the rights issue and its dilutive impact of it. Absolute dividends in total is a lot higher.
(16-04-2012, 05:25 PM)Underdogger Wrote: [ -> ]Can see that weaker hands are letting off of this counter and we might see even more liquidation in the days ahead, as long as both SAH and New Toyo did not give a clear indication of how they intend to do with the sales proceeds...
After all, the sales proceeds are the hard-earned money of the shareholders and should not be "squandered away". Investors should not be brushed aside in a few sweeping statements like "strategic review" or new line of businesses, etc...
To add salt to the wound, EPS has increased from 3.91(2010) to 4.51 cents (2011), but yet dividend remains the same at 1.94 cents.
Back in 2009, the EPS was 3.53 cents and the dividend was 2 cents..
(16-04-2012, 02:50 PM)Curiousparty Wrote: [ -> ]Just look at the list of disclosure of persons occupying managerial positions who are related to CEO or substantial shareholder...
GM of New Toyo (Vietnam) Aluminium paper
Production Manager
Treasury Accountant, etc
(16-04-2012, 11:38 AM)Underdogger Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps, one day someone can ask Muddy Waters Research to do a thinkpiece on SAH and New Toyo, and do some background checks
*****
Muddy Waters Research is a research company based in US that exposes fraud companies in China. The most recent case in point was their exposure of Sinoforest.
http://www.muddywatersresearch.com/