[/quote]
By the way, I am in the over 35 group. I bought my Toa Payoh flat in 2000 under the Sale of Balance Flats (SERS - Mature Estate) Scheme. 4 room flat at Lorong 7 for $260,000. Today the market price is about $530k to $550k. Yes I am a beneficiary, but who suffers? It is the younger generation. We are making money at the expense of the future generations. How different is this from the western profligate countries that are now in trouble?
People (both the population and the govt) need the moral courage to say we don't need to make money at the expense of the future. Housing is for housing, if you want wealth creation you can go try commercial property, buy gold, start a business, or visit valuebuddies to learn Value Investing!
[/quote]
Well done, u hit the nail on the head. The HDB is now calibrating everything to market price resales flats, so discounting to BTO is against market prices.
1. Less kids
2. More unhappiness - can never stop working till 65 years old
And this is exactly what they want to see... work till 65 years to clear debt. After that, u sell your flat to buy the old retirement 30 year old lease flat... (calibration keeps going up even for the retirement homes with no market resale value)...
(10-09-2012, 05:56 PM)CityFarmer Wrote: [ -> ]I heard your view crystal clear, with respect 
But i do feel that the housing issue has been exaggerated, by media(?). I do agree housing cost is outpace wages. I do agree it take longer to service housing loan now compare with old generations. But I do not agree it take more than one generation to service it. Of course, exclude the few exceptions. 
We have to agree that lifestyle changes between generations. People are more willing to pay more for better quality and better locations with larger part of their increased wages.
How many of younger generation (oop. sound like a old man now) willing to start with 3-rooms flat, rather than 4-rooms or even 5-rooms flat?
How many of younger generation willing to settle with only necessity renovation, instead of spending tenth of thousands renovation, before moving into the new house, with help from bank loan?
Just to add, using memories of my childhood ie. my parents' time...
1) No major renovation to our 3-rm flat - I still remember the cement floor for the rooms + Living room, mosiacs for the kitchen and toilet.
2) Few electrical appliances - No aircon, washing machine. Only 2 units on our floor of ~8units has a B/W TV. Most has radio (or subscribe to Redifusion) + table fan.
3) No overseas hols - At best, we go to the free places ie. Botanic Gardens, Reservoirs (MacRitchie / Seletar), Haw Par Villa. Going to the Bird Park / Sentosa is a treat.
4) Transport - Walking 30mins - 60mins to our destination (work or school) is quite normal, just to save 5ct / 10ct bus fare.
5) Others - Self medication, Hand me down clothes, shoes, books,.., Eating in / Bringing food to work / school, DIY entertainment/games,...
So, perhaps the definition of Basic Lifestyle has changed over the years. Or, perhaps our parents lead a more frugal lifestyle as they are more averse to debts and chose to save and pay off their Housing Loans faster?? I myself also chose to pay off mine within 10 years, by following the same virtues of frugality. Altho' it's a lot more luxurious than my parents' times, it pales in comparison to my peers... who continue to slog to maintain their 'Basic' lifestyle...
Or perhaps it is a byproduct of societal changes.
As each country develops itself, every successive generation wish to exceed their own parents' generations in terms of lifestyle.
To me this is a 2 sided coin story.
For the pros is every generation will aspire to be even better in terms of capabilities, monetary and innovation.
But the cons would be each successive generation would be ever more materialisitc and believe they are entitled to certain min lifestyle std.
The recent case of underage prostitute involving 50+ men prove the detrimental effects of a modern, capitalist society.
We can't be the world richest in terms of GDP per capital without any side effects.
Have you guys try observing outside a Cartier or Hour Glass? Its interesting as I was having my cuppa today outside one such shop and from observation, the age group for the largest number of men admiring the Patek or whatever luxurious brands seems to be in range of 20s - 30s.
Not surprise if I get similar results outside a LV shop!
Think psf wise it's not all that impressive. Newspapers are just blowing it up to sell more copies...
Personally I hear more parents worrying for their kids than newly weds having trouble finding affordable housing ;p
(10-09-2012, 11:35 PM)arthur Wrote: [ -> ]Have you guys try observing outside a Cartier or Hour Glass? Its interesting as I was having my cuppa today outside one such shop and from observation, the age group for the largest number of men admiring the Patek or whatever luxurious brands seems to be in range of 20s - 30s.
Not surprise if I get similar results outside a LV shop!
ha.. of course ...because those who can afford it admire from their wrist!
They problem with today's young people is they don't save much and they do too little charity!Everyone think they have a backup plan which is their parents to fall back on.
They are just not hungry enough to strive!
(10-09-2012, 09:56 PM)KopiKat Wrote: [ -> ]Just to add, using memories of my childhood ie. my parents' time...
1) No major renovation to our 3-rm flat - I still remember the cement floor for the rooms + Living room, mosiacs for the kitchen and toilet.
2) Few electrical appliances - No aircon, washing machine. Only 2 units on our floor of ~8units has a B/W TV. Most has radio (or subscribe to Redifusion) + table fan.
3) No overseas hols - At best, we go to the free places ie. Botanic Gardens, Reservoirs (MacRitchie / Seletar), Haw Par Villa. Going to the Bird Park / Sentosa is a treat.
4) Transport - Walking 30mins - 60mins to our destination (work or school) is quite normal, just to save 5ct / 10ct bus fare.
5) Others - Self medication, Hand me down clothes, shoes, books,.., Eating in / Bringing food to work / school, DIY entertainment/games,...
So, perhaps the definition of Basic Lifestyle has changed over the years. Or, perhaps our parents lead a more frugal lifestyle as they are more averse to debts and chose to save and pay off their Housing Loans faster?? I myself also chose to pay off mine within 10 years, by following the same virtues of frugality. Altho' it's a lot more luxurious than my parents' times, it pales in comparison to my peers... who continue to slog to maintain their 'Basic' lifestyle...
I agree with this observation. As Singapore rises up the ladder in terms of economic achievements, everyone's quality of life would have been "upgraded" as well. I recall a much simpler life when I was a kid too - no such things as computers, at most pagers and coinphones; and Van Kleef Aquarium visits.
I also fondly recall that we had a Crocodile Farm in East Coast Park (yes near Fort Road area), and trips to the Zoo and Science Centre WERE a treat!
I won't say I really hanker for a lot more nowadays - in fact I will still be happy to go for "free" walks to Botanic Gardens, Treetop Walk and Labrador Park (except for mosquitoes!). I take the bus or MRT and have no desire to get stuck in traffic jams.
I dare say I've even scaled down my expectations as I've grown older - being with family and loved ones is more important to me than having so many material possessions.
(11-09-2012, 01:11 AM)piggo Wrote: [ -> ]Think psf wise it's not all that impressive. Newspapers are just blowing it up to sell more copies...
Personally I hear more parents worrying for their kids than newly weds having trouble finding affordable housing ;p
By a simple survey around you, you may getting a feel that people are complaining, but not worrying
(11-09-2012, 10:12 AM)Musicwhiz Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2012, 09:56 PM)KopiKat Wrote: [ -> ]Just to add, using memories of my childhood ie. my parents' time...
1) No major renovation to our 3-rm flat - I still remember the cement floor for the rooms + Living room, mosiacs for the kitchen and toilet.
2) Few electrical appliances - No aircon, washing machine. Only 2 units on our floor of ~8units has a B/W TV. Most has radio (or subscribe to Redifusion) + table fan.
3) No overseas hols - At best, we go to the free places ie. Botanic Gardens, Reservoirs (MacRitchie / Seletar), Haw Par Villa. Going to the Bird Park / Sentosa is a treat.
4) Transport - Walking 30mins - 60mins to our destination (work or school) is quite normal, just to save 5ct / 10ct bus fare.
5) Others - Self medication, Hand me down clothes, shoes, books,.., Eating in / Bringing food to work / school, DIY entertainment/games,...
So, perhaps the definition of Basic Lifestyle has changed over the years. Or, perhaps our parents lead a more frugal lifestyle as they are more averse to debts and chose to save and pay off their Housing Loans faster?? I myself also chose to pay off mine within 10 years, by following the same virtues of frugality. Altho' it's a lot more luxurious than my parents' times, it pales in comparison to my peers... who continue to slog to maintain their 'Basic' lifestyle...
I agree with this observation. As Singapore rises up the ladder in terms of economic achievements, everyone's quality of life would have been "upgraded" as well. I recall a much simpler life when I was a kid too - no such things as computers, at most pagers and coinphones; and Van Kleef Aquarium visits.
I also fondly recall that we had a Crocodile Farm in East Coast Park (yes near Fort Road area), and trips to the Zoo and Science Centre WERE a treat!
I won't say I really hanker for a lot more nowadays - in fact I will still be happy to go for "free" walks to Botanic Gardens, Treetop Walk and Labrador Park (except for mosquitoes!). I take the bus or MRT and have no desire to get stuck in traffic jams. I dare say I've even scaled down my expectations as I've grown older - being with family and loved ones is more important to me than having so many material possessions.
For my generation I remember east coast road safety park was a real treat back then like going on vacation only those who do very well during mid year exams get to sit in cars and and pedal about in the park and after that we'd go to macdonalds for a treat this was in the 80's mind. I remember my daily lunch money was only 40 cents so eating at macdonalds freaking expensive really chew it well like eating wagyu.
These days kids too much good life already many things take for granted no need to do well in exams or do well in anything everyday also got lunch money from parents to eat at fast food. huh ... uncle you still using day old samsung cellphone we using iphone 4 already leh - brats .. wait till you go army they will whack you jialat jialat
(11-09-2012, 10:12 AM)Musicwhiz Wrote: [ -> ]I won't say I really hanker for a lot more nowadays - in fact I will still be happy to go for "free" walks to Botanic Gardens, Treetop Walk and Labrador Park (except for mosquitoes!). I take the bus or MRT and have no desire to get stuck in traffic jams. I dare say I've even scaled down my expectations as I've grown older - being with family and loved ones is more important to me than having so many material possessions.
Been grown older, with more life experience, we have been more enlightened to things make us happier.
An evening walk after dinner in park, with loved ones chatting on past wonderful experience, is a much happier and lasting occasion than driving a Ferrari cruising along orchard road with newly known sexy girl-friend.
A family gathering at home, to recap lose time and re-bond the relationship is a much happier and lasting occasion than having poshy parties a 5-stars hotel, but with people chatting with topic no ones interested and will remember
Good discussion.
My personal view is, there is relatively affordable housing available for the young, but of course there are many expensive housing in Singapore as well.
But some's expectations are unaffordable.
Housing prices are on the high side currently, especially the private housing, and its not coming down as fast as some expected, even with some of the new policies implemented by the government. Well some things take time, and bubbles don't burst easily.