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(25-05-2011, 10:53 AM)iisterry Wrote: [ -> ]I'm curious if you have chanced across Tan Jee Say's proposal on the New Singapore Economy?

Link

Yes that idea came from reading Tan Jee Say's manifesto.

But I can say for some certainty any suggestions or ideas from opposition however good will probably never see the light of day unfortunate for our country isn't it.
(25-05-2011, 10:53 AM)iisterry Wrote: [ -> ]they are against foreign PMETs who come in for a free ride at our expense.

No such thing. If Singapore is not welcoming to foreign workers, companies will go elsewhere (of course its not a 1 or 0 kind of thing, but judgement is a hard thing to gauge). It is a necessary precondition.

The question is, as I keep repeating in various forms, whether you bother to keep yourself globally competitive. If you are among the best in the world in what you do, you will earn good pay regardless of how low your competition wants to go.

Blaming FW for coming in and crowding you out is a distraction from the real problem.


(25-05-2011, 09:21 PM)tanjm Wrote: [ -> ]The question is, as I keep repeating in various forms, whether you bother to keep yourself globally competitive. If you are among the best in the world in what you do, you will earn good pay regardless of how low your competition wants to go.

Blaming FW for coming in and crowding you out is a distraction from the real problem.

I would politely disagree with this point. Working in a few MNC's I have seen that managers would like to hire the best, and many a times the best is a Singaporean, however they are not able to afford to pay the best as they have budget restrictions. They instead go for whomever they can hire within the allocated budget for that requisition. Often times, it happens to be a FT/FW who is willing to work with the low pay.

That has been my experience.
(25-05-2011, 10:53 AM)iisterry Wrote: [ -> ]I'm curious if you have chanced across Tan Jee Say's proposal on the New Singapore Economy?

The percentage of people employed in manufacturing is about 20%. Blue collar work has traditionally been a mainstay of lower educated employment. If you take away manufacturing, what are you going to do with these people? work in Macdonalds? Parks and recreation?

Manufacturing is itself a generator of service jobs. Banking, logistics/warehousing, transport, food, exhibition/convention, warehousing, just to name a few. In contrast, logistics by itself for example generates no job multiplier.

he mentions sectors such as Heathcare, Education, Finance, Transport, Creative industries.

Finance and transport need to service something as I mentioned above.

Other industries either cannot generate the numbers of jobs you'd need or they need skills which are hard to come by.

And all of them are not invulnerable to competition or downturn. So manufacturing provides a diversity of employment. Even a country like the USA wants to keep as much of its manufacturing as possible.

You'll also realize that more and more of the low end manufacturing has left Singapore of its own accord over the years.



(25-05-2011, 09:29 PM)flinger Wrote: [ -> ]
(25-05-2011, 09:21 PM)tanjm Wrote: [ -> ]The question is, as I keep repeating in various forms, whether you bother to keep yourself globally competitive. If you are among the best in the world in what you do, you will earn good pay regardless of how low your competition wants to go.

Blaming FW for coming in and crowding you out is a distraction from the real problem.

I would politely disagree with this point. Working in a few MNC's I have seen that managers would like to hire the best, and many a times the best is a Singaporean, however they are not able to afford to pay the best as they have budget restrictions. They instead go for whomever they can hire within the allocated budget for that requisition. Often times, it happens to be a FT/FW who is willing to work with the low pay.

That has been my experience.

Of course all managers like to hire the best (esp when they don't have to pay for them). That's without question. But how easy is the job to do ?

The idea is that when you are highly employable, you can go for jobs which others cannot even do. Even within the IT world, there's a hierachy of people, from database adminstrators, to desktop support, to programmers, to R&D engineers to game developers, to software QA to large project managers. All of which have differing hurdles to cross. If you are content to have the same skills and attitude as a large group of people, naturally demand and supply come into play.

If cheap were all it was, then BMW would not be a succesful car company. Banks would totally relocate staff to India and keep only front office staff in their home countries. Indonesia maids would totally dominate over Philipina maids. I would be buying a Huawei network switch instead of a Cisco switch. I'd fly budget all the time and SIA would be bankrupt. I would watch local movies instead of big budget hollywood shows.

tanjm Wrote:No such thing. If Singapore is not welcoming to foreign workers, companies will go elsewhere (of course its not a 1 or 0 kind of thing, but judgement is a hard thing to gauge). It is a necessary precondition.

Of course got such thing. I have to agree with isterry on this.

It is quite simplistic to repeat government argument that company will go elsewhere if Singaporean is not welcoming to foreign workers. Yes, company may go elsewhere but we have to look for the reasons why Singaporeans feel so disgruntled. First, government and their supporters should look at government policies whether Singaporeans feel justified in feeling being treated unfairly in the job market. The most obvious is Singaporeans carrying the liability of NS and being discriminated during job interviews for it.

Let's use our common sense. Given all things being equal, would you hire a Singaporean or a foreigner? Which boss would prefer someone who will have to disappear year in year out for weeks for reservist service? Foreigners benefit from the very sacrifice Singaporeans made to provide for a safer place for them(and us) and yet at the same time, we suffer a disadvantage compared to the foreigners when competing for jobs. Is this fair? Should foreigners be made to pay higher taxes and employers pay higher foreign levy to compensate for Singaporeans' sacrifice in NS? Why should they free-ride on our sacrifices?

Of course, if one is doing the hiring, he will want more choices (more foreigners) to meet budget constraints. I won't be surprised a Singaporean will be discriminating his own kind in this situation but of course, he will come out with all sorts of reasons except the real one.
Hi Tanjm,

I beg to disagree with you..

The issue now is the easy pool of foreigners employers has access to, thereby resulting in significant downward pressure on wage level...
Also, it also reduces the level of job security in SG...

Any PMET hitting 40s is high susceptible to retrenchment no matter how talented you are...

Simple reason is because by age 40, one talented personnel would be drawing a huge salary and the company can easily replace him by hiring 2 or more cheaper personnel to split up his responsibility or work load...

No matter in any organisation... No one is INDISPENSABLE in this world...

Of course, u pointed out earlier that if a business move away, there will be downstream effects and led to loss of many jobs...
Businesses can shift away to other countries so long as there is comparative advantage and there's profit to be made..
This is inevitable but if the easy access to the pool of foreigners is eliminated, then those unemployed can still find jobs ...

In the current situation, the pool of foreigners is warping the supply and acting like a cancer ...

How many Singaporeans can compete on COST when we have families to feed in SG????

1st world countries like Europe, Australia and even USA does not open the floodgate with QC like Singapore did...

Perhaps you are truly a talent and truly indispensable but how about the rest of the Singaporeans?

Employers need to adopt a mindset to employ Singaporeans 1st..
This is to ensure our people have job security and good wages to cope with the rising inflation...
A country is nothing without its people...

How can our country prosper if we continue to allow the foreigners to exploit the system??

I mentioned earlier than the damage has been done because too many dubious foreign talents has been allowed into the country and the government has to deal with all these people already inside our borders...

If we do not start treating the cancer now, it will be too late...

I think this is the last I will post in this thread. The original topic was "ideas for singapore", but has degenerated into a FW debate.

I leave you with a few thoughts.

Do you think about others pulling you back or are you thinking about how you can pull ahead of the pack? Which kind of thinker are you?

In the global marketplace, talent is the only way to stay ahead.

In the global marketplace, labor is a commodity. Price **and** quality count.
Well, I won't say that it has degenerated into a FW debate...

Ideas are meant to be debated upon and through the exchange, a better idea can evolve..

Don't you agree?

(25-05-2011, 10:01 PM)Gosling Wrote: [ -> ]Let's use our common sense. Given all things being equal, would you hire a Singaporean or a foreigner? Which boss would prefer someone who will have to disappear year in year out for weeks for reservist service? Foreigners benefit from the very sacrifice Singaporeans made to provide for a safer place for them(and us) and yet at the same time, we suffer a disadvantage compared to the foreigners when competing for jobs. Is this fair? Should foreigners be made to pay higher taxes and employers pay higher foreign levy to compensate for Singaporeans' sacrifice in NS? Why should they free-ride on our sacrifices?

That is the problem when human beings want to organize themselves to fit inside a border. You got to defend that border.

There should be some kind of "defense tax" to be paid by foreigners on top of the regular tax. This should be comparable to the 2 years of sacrifice. The compensation is one way, i.e. you cannot choose to pay more tax to escape the NS.

(25-05-2011, 09:43 PM)tanjm Wrote: [ -> ]If cheap were all it was, then BMW would not be a succesful car company. Banks would totally relocate staff to India and keep only front office staff in their home countries. Indonesia maids would totally dominate over Philipina maids. I would be buying a Huawei network switch instead of a Cisco switch. I'd fly budget all the time and SIA would be bankrupt. I would watch local movies instead of big budget hollywood shows.

Excellent examples of differentiation.


(25-05-2011, 10:25 PM)Zelphon Wrote: [ -> ]How can our country prosper if we continue to allow the foreigners to exploit the system??

Immigration is a political problem everywhere. Singapore does not forbid her citizens to exploit the system of other countries.

I know of someone who left Singapore and got himself a job in China. He's now in the senior management of a listed company. Earns a nice salary and stays in a condo paid by his employer. He is in his early 30s and his highest qualification is "only" a polytechnic diploma. But he is diligent, smart, and makes himself relevant. I couldn't pay him enough to make him stay when he tendered his resignation many years ago.

My own experience is that if you are looking for someone to provide you with a safety net, look no further because that someone is yourself.
my 2 cents worth.
A lot of hiring Singaporean managers actually would want to employ FT over a Singaporean for a variety of reasons.

1. Cheaper. This is critical to keep their department budget under control. This will keep their job safe as the managers tend to be the ones drawing the higher salaries.

2. Control. Overall, it is easier to control FT as the job means more to them. Singaporeans have home ground advantage and need not worry about renewing their employment passes.

3. Dedication. A number of foreign talent do not have liabilities(N.S.) or families here. They work 24/7 and their routine alternates between work and sleep. Singaporeans have all the distractions.



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